October 19, 2004

Interview: DJ Z-Trip

Interview by Holmes Wilson, Nick Reville, and Gino Sorcinelli

To know what DJ Z-Trip is about, you have to get his underground release and subsequent internet megahit Uneasy Listening. Open the jewel case and you'll see the words "This is the best CD I own" emblazoned in a silver on black, no-nonsense font across the disk inside. The shot-calling isn't mere bravado, Z-Trip is just aiming high: if you don't agree (or at least consider the possibility) then he didn't do his job.

Unfortunately, Uneasy Listening is hard to come by; millions of people love it, but thanks to copyright-laws-gone-wild, it's illegal to sell or distribute. This remains true despite an extraordinary effort to put out the album legally: Z-Trip signed to a major label and spent one whole year with a full-time employee working to get permission from the artists, publishers, and record labels whose songs he interwove. He got nowhere.

Z-Trip has first-hand knowledge of the nightmare of sample clearance. You can hear in his voice the frustration and disbelief of a rock musician in a land that banned power chords. But at the same time he cares about his art enough to roll with the punches, not get discouraged, and do whatever it takes to get his music to the people who love it. And all the while, he's keeping his eyes on the prize: "Imagine how great it would be if someone finally breaks through the floodgates and allows all this music to get through. Think of how much better music could sound."

If you care about hip hop, sample based music, copyright reform, or free culture then, well, this is the best interview you've read. -HW


Gino: Could you start out by telling us a little bit about how you started DJing, and how you came across your style. What made you mix different elements of different genres together?

"If I heard somebody do a set that inspired me, I'd try to get the same energy or same aesthetic of that set."

Z-Trip: Well, I've been DJing for over, let's see, 16 years? It's been a minute since I've actually checked. After ten or fifteen years go by, you kind of start to just say "I’ve been doing this forever, I’ll probably be doing this for the rest of my life." As far as coming across my style, I pick up little things here and there. I've always sort of done that. I'm just really into music, period. Hands down, if it's good music to me, it finds its way into my crate or collection. I fashion my style of spinning after the concepts of Afrika Bambaattaa and Kool Herc, the early forefathers like Jazzy Jay. These people had no boundaries in their crates and I kind of follow the same rule of thumb. On top of that, I try to do my own thing, and be as original as I can be. If I heard somebody do a set that inspired me, I’d try to get the same energy or same aesthetic of that set, this is like back in the day when I would study other people’s sets. I would try to get that emotion, and try to do it my own way, and not sound like them. I'm very big on everybody being as original as possible.

Gino: Did you ever see any of the pioneers you spoke of perform live?

Z-Trip: I never saw them in their prime, but I'd heard tapes and I'd hear stories and folklore about them. I would study them. You gained an appreciation for how they had no barriers. That's what I went after. Playing whatever I wanted to play, as long as it was funky and rocked the party.

Gino: How did you and DJ P come up with the concept of Uneasy Listening? When did you start working on it, and what has it done for your career and you personally?

"It definitely was a sleeper that awoke over time"

Z-Trip: Well, it definitely was a sleeper that awoke over time. When we did it, we didn't set out to do anything huge with it. It was more just something for us to do. We met at a rave in Oklahoma, and when we heard each other play, we both realized we sort of played by the same rules, we were using whatever we wanted to use. Records that no other DJ's were playing at the time. Whether it be Naked Eyes, or any of these random 80's records. I would flip ‘em a certain way, and I heard him doing the same style. And by the way, it's not like we were the first cats to ever do it, but we were definitely two of the few cats to do it at the time. Not many people could pull it off, and pull it off well. He (DJ P) was one of those people. He and I had talked that night about hanging out and spinning sometime down the line, and he came down to Arizona for a show and we said "Hey, let's make a mix tape."

We had both done mix tapes, and they had always stayed somewhat in the traditional rule of hip hop, with the majority of the songs being rap records or b-boy breaks. You wouldn't have to worry about freaking your audience out because everything was a guaranteed banger or something really good. That was the mix tape standard at the time, to play the current stuff or the classics, but not deviate too much. We got kind of burnt on that, because we had done it so many times. Although it was working, it wasn't really challenging us as DJ's. We thought about how fun it would be to drop rock songs in the middle of a hip-hop set. But flip it a bit. It’s funny, at shows I might have been playing hip hop records the whole night, but at one point, threw in a Van Halen record. At the end of the night, people came up and said "Hey man, that was a great set, that Van Halen thing you did was great." I thought, wow, I just played for three hours, and that's first thing they brought up. He and I were both sort of having that happen to us, so we decided to go against the grain, and try to not do your standard mix tape, try and do something more for us. And the three or four people who caught on to what we were doing.

"We didn't have a computer at the time; we did it on a 4-track."

That was really the concept. To try to do a mix that didn't really have that much scratching or hip hop records, but had the epitome of what hip hop mixing was about, which was just mixing records and doing it all on vinyl. We didn't have a computer at the time; we did it on a 4-track. We tried to emulate all the stuff we did live in one concentrated effort. And that became Uneasy Listening. Really, when we did it, he and I were both nervous about putting it out. We were afraid our contemporaries were going to hear it and call us wack because it didn't have the latest Mos Def song on it, or whatever was the latest song at that time. We were a little nervous that people would look at us and think we weren't deep hip-hop heads. We both are, we know the history, and we know the deal. Uneasy Listening was just something for us to blow off steam and poke fun at everything. That's why we called it Uneasy Listening. When we had 1,000 copies pressed, we left it and walked away from it. And the response we got was bigger than any mix tape DJ P or I had ever done. And it just snowballed. People ended up dubbing it for each other, and we had to press a few thousand more copies because of the demand for it. At that point we stopped, and it took on a life of its own. It made its way on the Internet, Spin and Rolling Stone. People started reviewing it and giving it all kinds of praise. DJ P and I were flabbergasted, because we never expected it to go so far.

Holmes: How did Uneasy Listening relate to you getting signed to Hollywood?

"Uneasy Listening landed in all sorts of people's hands, and became a cult hit. It had the same sort of buzz and vibe that Danger Mouse's Grey Album just had. It was one of these things where we couldn't sell it, we couldn't clear it, we couldn't really do anything with it, but it was this amazing piece of art that everyone wanted to hear."

Z-Trip: Uneasy Listening landed in all sorts of people's hands, and became a cult hit. It had the same sort of buzz and vibe that Danger Mouse's Grey Album just had. It was one of these things where we couldn't sell it, we couldn't clear it, we couldn't really do anything with it, but it was this amazing piece of art that everyone wanted to hear. And I think the label started to see a bigger demand for that sort of thing. I had done plenty of independent stuff before this; I did DJ tracks and things like that. The Return of The DJ series, random remix work, whatever I could get my hands on. I knew the Major labels had an interest in it, and were checking for me, but the deals before weren’t right. I think when they saw the notoriety that came with it and saw that it was blowing up, that's when a bidding war started.

I think the labels ended up coming at me rather than both of us, because, at the time, I had been around longer and my name was a bit more known. It was an interesting process. When I started taking meetings, I had to see who was giving me the best deal. I ended up going with Hollywood for one of two reasons. They ended up giving me the most freedom, which was paramount. The second reason was that they gave me the most support. To a degree, I was able to write my own deal with them. And as a DJ, there are so many things that I do different from a traditional rap group or a rock band. I'm a whole different animal, the deal had to be hand crafted, because a DJ can do so many things. I still feel like there are a lot of labels, and people in the public who still don't "get it" though, and although they are getting it day by day, it’s a slow process. Every time a DJ makes a step forward, he does so for everybody, it sort of educates as it goes. It will be interesting to see what transpires from the whole deal. But Uneasy Listening definitely did spawn interest I wouldn't have gotten if I hadn't done the project with DJ P.

Nick: So when exactly did you sign to Hollywood?

DJ Z-Trip: I believe it was about two years ago:

Nick: What's been happening since?

DJ Z-Trip: It's kind of a weird situation. Now were getting into what coincides with your site, and the message your trying to send out. The whole sampling thing turned into an even bigger deal than it already was. See, with us doing blends, it created a whole new animal. Just when people had figured out how to sample and clear samples, and the industry had figured out how to make money off it, everything was sort of good for a while. But then people realized that things like Uneasy Listening could be done. Blends started to become a two-headed animal, and it changed the game up. The old sample rule was sort of like, if I wanted to go out and sample Led Zeppelin, well, I'd go out and do it, and try to clear it with them. If they were in to it, it would clear, if they turned it down, I was out of luck. That's easy, that's one artist and one publishing company. But when you try to clear things like a mix album, which was originally the plan for my first album, it sort of gets into a tangled web. You now have two artists to clear. Which translates into four approvals. And, if you’re mixing both of the artists together and your using both their works 50/50, it turns into a publishing nightmare. Everybody wants 100 percent of his or her publishing. I was trying to clear these things, but the industry wasn't really setup to deal with this. Nobody had really tried to take two songs from two separate artists and clear them as a separate work.

"We know that the potential is huge! People want it. They come out to the shows, they download the hell out of it, and they want to listen to it. It's sort of funny, the industry just can't figure out a way to get their shit together and make a profit out of it. So, they tend to just shut it down."

The industry is so old school in thinking, most can't wrap their head around the concept of a work A and a work B coming together to form work C. That was, and still is, a huge battle for me and other DJ's. Lots of people still don't get it. There is a ton of work that will never get cleared or heard by the public. That's sort of the travesty in this. We know that the potential is huge! People want it. They come out to the shows, they download the hell out of it, and they want to listen to it. It’s sort of funny, the industry just can't figure out a way to get their shit together and make a profit out of it. So, they tend to just shut it down. The music is evolving, and DJ's are evolving, and mixing is evolving, and the listener is evolving, and the only people who are not evolving are the folks caught up on the old art of sampling. They need to realize this is the new form of sampling. To make a song with 40 samples would be impossible to clear, but people are doing it and putting it out there, there is a demand.

When you have to deal with artists, publishers, and labels, with that many interests, the work dies before it even gets out. Many people have taken it upon themselves to just do it anyway, for art’s sake. As a DJ, one has to decide, do you live behind this law that keeps you curved as an artist, or do you go ahead and do the art you want to do. If you don't do your art, to me, you’re killing yourself inside, yet nobody wants to break laws either, it’s the everyday struggle for us, I mean we are DJ’s right, this is what DJ’s do, so you see the dilemma. I want to ask you guys, what kind of response did you get on Grey Tuesday. That's a big stand. I mean, other than the artists doing the work, that's the biggest stand someone has taken. We need that though. Sometimes you need to kind of smack folks over the head to get the attention, and then go for the hug.

Nick: Absolutely. We think that there are ways that sampling can work, for everyone involved. It's really just ignorance about what the music is, and what sampling is all about. There is a terrible fear someone has that people's reputations can be ruined if you sample them in the wrong way.

Holmes: People always ask us, "what if the NRA used The Beatles Happiness is a Warm Gun in a commercial?" We feel that's an absurd example. People would think that the NRA were being assholes, end of story, and they'd stop caring. It's like asking, "What if someone made a really crappy remix album." Well, nobody would listen to it, so it wouldn't matter that much.

"Now, call me crazy, but if I went up to you with a bag full of money, and said hey, I'm gonna give you free publicity plus money, and do all the work, wouldn't you want that? That is my personal gripe; I can't even do it legally when I try to do it right. It's just so frustrating for me."

Z-Trip: I think that's true, real good art will always rise to the top. Everything is going to sort of come out in the wash at the end of the day. I can see the artists/labels fears, but there is a risk in everything in music. I agree with some of the things you guys are doing. I most definitely relate to it, and I think most people do too. This goes even deeper for me, as a DJ. I have so many problems with this situation. If you're a listener, you can pump your fist, and sign petitions, and that's good any everything, I encourage people to do that. But as a DJ I’m a different story. It’s a bit harder. For instance, I get free promotional records from labels all the time. And if I like the record, I'll play it, and go here man; I'm supporting your endeavor. But as soon as I play the same record in a way to show my involvement, and mix it my way, maybe add something that works well alongside it, I can't clear it. I can't clear a fucking record they gave me for free. Do you see the weirdness in that? I've been waving a huge flag with all these samples I've been trying to clear, even going to the length of saying, "Hey, I don't want any money. I don't care about making money. Hey everybody who I'm trying to sample, I don't want your money. I just want people to hear MY art form." I just want them to sign off on it, and they can make the money, and win. And this sales pitch hasn't worked for the past few years. Now, call me crazy, but if I went up to you with a bag full of money, and said hey, I'm gonna give you free publicity plus money, and do all the work, wouldn't you want that? That is my personal gripe; I can't even do it legally when I try to do it right. It’s just so frustrating for me.

Gino: What was the artist’s logic and argument once money didn't become an issue?

Z- Trip: Well, there were plenty of people who just didn't care or weren't into the idea. Shit man, AC/DC doesn't need me to do something with their music. They've got plenty of money. Every mix combination that I came up with, it was a different problem. For over a year I tried to make an album that way. And I realized, it’s impossible. Yet, the demand grows. Look at Danger Mouse. The Grey Album is almost like the new Uneasy Listening, he took similar concepts we used and it blew up. Yeah, he got shut down, but somehow, that gave him ever more publicity. It's a weird thing man, if I were a kid today going to guitar center and buying my tables, and seeing the movie Scratch, I would be confused as fuck as to how to proceed.

"Musically, there are so many possiblities, it just continues to grow. Although I don't think enough artists who have already made money off their music see those possibilities."

Although People like Steinski, Coldcut, and Negativland have been doing this sort of thing forever, and me and P took it in a slightly different direction, it’s all under ground, and it’s forever growing. All these people see and hear this stuff and it inspires them to do it themselves. Musically, there are so many possiblities, it just continues to grow. Although, I don't enough artists who have already made money off their music see those possibilities. It only generates more sales from a crowd that may never hear the stuff on their own. It gives new life to artists who are good, but may have been forgotten. It’s such a simple concept, yet it’s a hard sell. I've had to change the whole concept of my album because of this stuff. I've had to sample totally different artists, and it changes the whole feel of the album.

Nick: That turns it into a totally different conceptual project.

Z-Trip: Right. And its not like the new album is a bad thing, It’s an album I’ve wanted to make for a while, yes. It’s just that I was hoping to put out a mix album first. Who knows, maybe they’ll be ready for it five years from now, and I’ll try again. Either way, this album is going to be very different than what I do live, which is also a really nice change of pace for me, and my early diehard fanbase. I think people will be surprised.

Nick: It seems to us the system is so complicated and impractical, with having to negotiate individual licenses with multiple parties over single samples, and having to do that for an entire album, it will never work. We as a society need to take this music seriously, and show people why it’s an art form. It seems like a compulsory license might be the only way to make this happen.

"It looks like were at a stalemate right now."

Z-Trip: The problem is, I don't think record labels, artists and publishers will all ever get it at once. It’s going to take something that everyone agrees upon, yet I don't think they will ever wrap their heads around it. How much more can an artist like me do than say I'll promo other artists for nothing? If labels don't get that, I don't think they'll ever get it. Downloading is killing them, and it’s freaking them out. You've got this archaic system that made people lots of money. Now it’s not making people as much money because it’s too impossible to do it legally. Who knows? This kind of music will continue to go on. Everyday someone hears someone else do a blend, or a mix, and it raises the bar, it makes people want to put their own spin on it. And they’re doing it. And they’re putting it out. And it’s happening. Unless the industry starts to see this opportunity and figures out a way to develop a system, it will never happen. And it looks like were at a stalemate right now.

Nick: Do you think any other DJ's or sample based artists feel political and riled up about this, and want some sort of change?

"Anytime you're a leader, and your vocal and you step up, usually you get snuffed out in some way, right?"

Z-Trip: I think that there is a little bit of both sides in everybody. I think you've got the artists that are over the whole thing. They are so sick of it, and they just want to make a living, so they know they have to bend and work around it. On the other hand, there are lots of artists that are charged, and super pissed. But not all of them want to speak out. Some of them are pissed but don't want to say anything. Who wants to ring the alarm? Nobody really wants to do that. Anytime you're a leader, and your vocal and you step up, usually you get snuffed out in some way, right? The industry is more powerful financially than each artist individually, so you work with the system the best you can, or develop your own. But there are more of us then them. So you have to take that into account. Look at the Internet. You can see that we have the ability to make change. I want every artist, and every publisher, and every DJ to get money. Everyone who is doing work should get paid. But its gonna have to take someone to make all those people sit in a room and sign off on a paper of what's fair. It's like the big record negotiation in the sky. There are so many people who are down for this. But the people who hold the power, and the control, were up against them. Were dealing with factors in the constitution, which was written so long ago, they never really could have foreseen this.

Nick: In some ways, the original writers of the constitution might have had more of an idea of what copyright was all about. But now all the labels and companies have made it so art and culture is not something we can build on, its just owned and controlled.

Holmes: In the original constitution, it was only supposed to hold to someone's work for 14 years. And it also said that "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts." In a lot of ways, I think they had the right idea. It’s about being able to make a living, but not controlling something forever just because its your right while fucking over other people that want to draw off your work.

Nick: The point of copy write is to promote progress. And now, the most progressive music genre is being stifled. Something has gone really wrong.

"People should just chill out and work a bit harder on stuff before they throw it up on the Internet."

Z-Trip: I sit here, and I keep going back and forth. Being an artist now, half of me wants to look out for what I do. But I also see the other side. I see both sides of the fence. And one of the things hurting the DJ's is that on the Internet, there are a million cats doing this. And there is some stuff out there that isn't top notch. And people hear that inferior end result, and they’re turned off. Your chances of winning an artist or publisher over with something good are much better than with something done poorly. People should just chill out and work a bit harder on stuff before they throw it up on the Internet. There is nothing better than waiting a minute to really perfect your work and getting a great response, rather than an OK reaction from something done fast just to put out there. In addition, some people just do it on the computer, which takes a bit of the DJ culture out of the picture. I think doing it with two pieces of wax, live, if it can be done, is crucial.

Like I said, Sometimes the art itself gets lost in the translation because some of the art isn't up to snuff. If I were able to take the top ten songs that I could show to someone and give them the ability to understand DJ's with those ten, I would take the ten best and say this is what I'm talking about, forget all the other crap, because there is a lot of it out there. For instance, if you ever hear “Nothing To Fear” by Steinski, it took him two years to do it, and its phenomenal and flawless, and so good. That's a perfect example of this art being done extremely well. But it could never be cleared. And that's our problem. I honestly don't know how it’s going to happen. Every circumstance will be different, because every contract, label, publisher, and artist is different.

"People say it all the time… 'Oh, turn that up, that's MY song'. It's like sure, someone may have written the song 'Happy Birthday to You', but that is everybody's song, you follow?"

On a spiritual level, my gut feeling is that anytime somebody makes a record, and puts it out, it is no longer 100 percent theirs. I mean, it is on paper, but after you release it, in a sense you lose total control of the product. Music touches people; everybody takes a piece of each song with them, that’s the beauty of music. It becomes part of the world. People say it all the time… “Oh, turn that up, that’s MY song”. It’s like sure, someone may have written the song “Happy Birthday to you”, but that is everybody’s song, you follow? I know it’s a bit deep, but you get my point. Creating music is one thing, but ownership of music is another, it’s strange.

And now more than ever, the Internet has just changed where music can go, and who can hear it. Technology is just changing things. People go online and see what's being downloaded the most. And you have the option to no longer be hammered by labels with bullshit music that you just don't care about. I’m finding more people care about what's on the Internet than Radio or MTV.

Holmes: The Internet is great for that. Word of mouth helps good music spread. And it is still a bit of a sea. But we still think that record labels have a role to help sort out the good and the bad, but ultimately people can most likely do that themselves.

Z-Trip: The Internet really has turned into the ultimate promo tool. Sadly though, if you're an artist who uses samples, you may not reap any real benefits. But then, if you look at Danger Mouse, his stuff went gold when you guys hosted it for Grey Tuesday right?

Holmes: We actually found out it didn't, but guess I did by Canadian standard.

Z-Trip: So how many downloads is that equal to?

Holmes: 100,000.

Z-Trip: Well shit man, that's ghetto gold to me pal. In my mind, that’s a gold record.

Nick: That's more than any CD sold that day by a mile.

Z-Trip: Well, that just shows there is a huge demand for that. And were trying to supply it. In supply and demand, as a process, shouldn't some money be made off of that? But it’s just not happening. It's weird man; I honestly don't know what’s going to happen. On one hand, I'm down to educate and speak out against it. Yet, on the other hand, if you take a stand, the industry will try to take an even bigger stand on the people. If that happens, the art suffers.

Holmes: We talked to a lot of the families that got sued and they were really feeling it. It was just so out of the blue for them. And they have a lot a risk, a lot to lose.

"The people that control other peoples ability to hear music need to understand that they can either be a part of this movement, or get rolled over by it."

Z-Trip: That's absurd. The ends don't justify the means. Trying to incite fear by making an example of a few families or people, that’s not right. Really, that's not the way to go about it. You’re sending out the wrong message. At the end of the day, it’s all about music. Once you put your music out in the world, you can't fully control where it goes. And that's the beauty of it. Music should be able to hit all the ears it needs to hit. You will always have an audience as long as you put out good music. The people that control other peoples ability to hear music need to understand that they can either be a part of this movement, or get rolled over by it. The technology is gonna just keep moving, and they won't be able to stop it, no matter what. They’re clinging to a dinosaur mentality.

"Every day I live with the fear of 'Do I silence myself' or do I do my art. I have so much work I want people to hear that they never can legally hear. So, what do I do, what do we do?"

I'm very curious to see how it unfolds, because I find myself in the middle of this. I’m glad we did Uneasy Listening in a time when it could do what it needed to do. To go back to Danger Mouse, I kind of encourage people to do what Danger Mouse did, because I think when something comes out, despite a cease and desist notice; it makes it even more empowering. It pushes the art along. It inspires many. The only thing I worry about in these cases are financial retaliations from the labels. I’d love to see the artists, DJ’s and labels working together, it would solve all the problems. At this point though, I’m still a bit concerned for Danger Mouse. I feel like he’s gonna be cool, but I’m worried about his situation. It’s incredibly scary. And it’s not like he’s evil or anything, he’s a really nice guy who just loves music. There are people out there murdering, and stealing, and raping, and all this guy is trying to do is make a mix album. Someone who is just trying to spread an idea might get shut down. And this fear looms over every artist’s head that does this stuff. And some of the best music might not be heard if people are afraid. I don't think music and fear have good compatibility. Every day I live with the fear of "Do I silence myself" or do I do my art. I have so much work I want people to hear that they never can legally hear. So, what do I do, what do we do?

Gino: I think part of the key is to build a community where sample based musicians show each other that we are not alone. We can band together through one common site. Kind of like the sites that hosted Danger Mouse’s album. It's important to show were not a small group, and we’re not alone.

"Imagine how great it would be if someone finally breaks through the floodgates and allows all this music to get through. Think of how much better music could sound."

Z-Trip: I think that's true. I hope your database grows. I really put you guys in the same boat as www.moveon.org. People being fed up with the current situation and wanting change, so they pull together and stand up, create a website for change and get busy. You guys are kind of a similar cause, but for music instead of politics. I hope all DJ’s, remixers, and producers when interviewed, throw up the fist for all of us. Let folks know of the struggle. It's important. Imagine how great it would be if someone finally breaks through the floodgates and allows all this music to get through. Think of how much better music could sound. Think of how much music would be heard. The industry would evolve. That seems like it would be the best possible outcome. Again, there are worse things people could be doing than messing with music, right?

This interview is one that really matters to me, because were dealing with real stuff. A year off my life has been taken away from trying to “clear” music, and there is so much I’ve learned, there is so much to say.

Gino: I just wanted to touch on the love hate relationship with the Internet. I notice on your message board that certain people, although you want to encourage them, they post very sloppy work. That is a sad thing, because it gives the art a bad name.

"It's almost like I'm a fisherman who doesn't like to eat fish."

Z-Trip: I try my hardest not to hear most of the shit people are doing on my board or anywhere for that matter. I've never really been too into what newer DJ's are doing. I mean, I am to a degree, just to get a gauge or hear what they are about or whatever. But, It's almost like I'm a fisherman who doesn't like to eat fish. Maybe that's a selfish thing, I don't know. I just don't think it gets my creative juices going. I mean, obviously there are exceptions to the rule. A while back, this dude did a mix with a big band sample that blew my fucking mind. If someone does something really hot, I'll drop ‘em a line and say hey man, great stuff. The big band thing, loved it. But , unfortunately that is an exception, not the norm. Either way, I try my hardest to give constructive criticism and be honest as often as possible. I’ll tell you though, I would rather have people new to the culture learn what they can at my site, and my home, rather than a random book or a video. We live it and try and kick knowledge over there as often as possible. It’s cool, there is a lot of support and respect on my board.

Holmes: A lot of sites are working on how to make a system for how people’s best work gets separated form the rest.

"The Internet is a faceless thing, you can't really call it. But try and rock a live set and see how you do."

Z-Trip: We need that. The thing I love about hip-hop is the checks and balances. You try to pull some wack shit off live, and you’ll get dissed. When I was coming up, it happened to me all the time. I would get dissed. But I went home, licked my wounds, and got better. The Internet is a faceless thing, you can’t really call it. But try and rock a live set and see how you do. You'll remember the goods and bads for a long time. I always advocate doing it live in front of a crowd. That's the ultimate. To get the ultimate high off of this, do it live, with turntables. You have to stumble and fuck up before you get good at this. That’s what makes you fresh.

Gino: It's interesting how you've chosen to put up almost everything you've ever done on your site for free to download and share. And while people do this, you have such loyal fans now, that anytime you release something, it sells out very quickly.

"Good, free, mixed music opens people up."

Z-Trip: Well, I'm using the logic that I can't work against the system, so it only makes sense to work with it. I feel like if you play along with a situation, the outcome is more positive than if you fight it. The only problem I have is when people bootleg my stuff, that’s a huge diss. Other than that, I focus on shows. I’m still really independent. I give a lot of my work away. If I can turn more people on to my music, it’s good for me. I could fight it, but I'd rather have people get my work at my site, with a community, and be able to talk about it. It’s crazy, I have this following of people that will drive from Chicago to Portland just to see me. And that is the biggest compliment, and it warms me up. I feel I owe it to the tons of folks who are into my work and continue to support, and the loads of free shit I give out which eventually finds it way to the people who dig it. It's really just all about passing the music on to the next person. Good, free, mixed music opens people up. Here is a great example from Uneasy Listening. I have people come up to me and say "Hey, I never listened to Kansas before, but your “Dust In The Wind” mix really shook me up, I went out and bought the album." In that manner, I'm helping keep Kansas's dream alive and doing my thing too. I love that. It's all about the music, without boundaries or labels. Going back to Afrika Bambatta and Kool Herc, it’s all about music and unity. It’s always been about that.

Gino, Nick, Holmes: Well, thank you for the interview. It's been a real privilege.

Z-Trip: Thank you guys for showing interest in this subject. If you're reading this, thank you for making it this far. I hope I haven't bored you all to death, but it's great we were able to talk about this stuff a bit in depth. It’s real important to folks like me, so thank you. I hope you continue to do your thing, and hope that it makes a difference. All right, peace, I'm out.