July 20, 2005

Interview: M.I.A.

HOLMES: So anyway, the thing I'm interested in is what you think about this whole music piracy thing, and how you think it relates to pop. That's the broad thing I'm interested in, because we do this website about how piracy is changing the way people participate in pop music.

M.I.A.: I mean the thing is, it's really hard for someone like me because I made my music on something that cost like 300 pounds, my whole set up was just so homemade and it was in my bedroom and I demo'd all my tracks and I got signed straight out of the bedroom. And I used to hussle for studio time and get in like 5 hours every six weeks or something like that and so like it was always about empowering yourself and being able to survive with no money and being able to produce out of nothing and--you know--I still bum fares on the train and stuff, you know what I mean? I can't help it.

HOLMES: In London or New York?

M.I.A.: In London...

HOLMES: You can do that in London?

M.I.A.: I still do it in London, and I help other people too, you know what I mean? I'll never give that--like I have to have that somewhere on the planet where I still get to be on the peoples' side, you know? And because I came through the channels that I came up through it wasn't dependent on the record company, and radio, and TV, and all that sorta stuff and magazine culture and whatever and I tried to come up and do it without any of their help, and they didn't give me any help.

HOLMES: Did you explicitly try to do that, or was that just how it happened? Were you like "I wanna do it without them" or did it just happen without them?

M.I.A.: I never fit in to that. I was always on the wrong side of the tracks and I was always feeling like I'd rather work out things that help people and empower people than to join the machine and perpetuate a certain idea that I don't believe in, so it was always about-- for me it was always really about teaching people to just be honest and be straight, and be normal, and be grounded, and rely on your own things that you have and that you have around you. And in that sense, technology of course the obvious thing is that it does free up things and free up music for people.

HOLMES: Because you can make it easier? Or because of the distribution? Or...

M.I.A.: Well, it's like... when you're an artist and you first start making work, the thing that you're led by is to make work and get it out to people, and that's just direct, you make it and then it's out and you have no care in the world and, fuck it, you've survived for $5 a day before and you can still carry on doing it. And in that sense I'm just like yeah, music is good for people so let 'em have it and in that way you don't have to censor it and if the idea is to make music more interesting for people than it's GREAT that you don't have to go through these stupid machines because you can make music whatever you want it to be about and you can communicate and talk to people and no one's gonna censor you.

HOLMES: Do you see a lot of censorship because corporations run music?

M.I.A.: Oh hell yeah... [Holmes apologizing for pitching such a softball]

M.I.A.: A lot of people think that I came up as an artist and suddenly I'm going to deliver all these manifestos and start a revolution and really that's what it is, it's about trying to survive without the machine. And that's the battle I took on: it's that I'm not trying to be a politician and I'm not trying to do much things that way, because then I would go and study politics and become and politician and do something about it. But right now the thing that I was concerned with was putting more creativity into music and more ideas and opinions into music and just giving people music that will actually help them and inform them or teach themselves.

HOLMES: So do you think we can all take it for granted that as more people can get popular without owing anything to the machine that that will feed back into the rest of our political reality?

M.I.A.: Well I think I'm one of the first people to break on the internet...

HOLMES: Yeah you totally are.

M.I.A.: ... so I'm totally happy about that. You know, I get to stick my fingers up at every single person in the music industry and go pssht I didn't need your fucking play on the radio so fuck you and no, I'm not going to edit Sunshowers and release a statement and... you know, they wanted me to edit Galang and all this sort of stuff and it's not even hardcore what I'm saying because I already had to deal with that when I was writing the song. I knew they were gonna fuck with me so I learned how to use my words to get round them but still say what I mean.

HOLMES: Yeah, I mean it's all...

M.I.A.: Yeah, and for them to all just come up on stupid stuff like "We don't like 'blaze the blaze' "

HOLMES: Yeah, just blow that out...

M.I.A.: Yeah, and they're lke "well, the song just has to go 'Galang galang' [and with a cadence] galangalangalang"?

HOLMES: So I come from an activism background, like doing anti-sweatshop activism, protests, etc, and I kind of feel like, you know, the music industry, what does it have to do with the rest of corporate control in different parts of the political system? It sort of feels like if we get pop culture back... if we get that piece of pop culture back, we'd get a lot.

M.I.A.: Yeah, and the only way to do that is through the internet. And I think also, just-- I'm feeling like with what I'm doing, there's a sense of something starting where it's like, "fuck celebrities, fuck the money, fuck bling, fuck everything", like, "we don't give a shit." I mean I make a point of going, I don't need to wear Versacci and I can make my own clothes and I'm quite happy with wearing something really shitty, like--I'm not that insecure.

HOLMES: That's not exactly shitty...

M.I.A.: (laughing) Today it's not, but you know what I mean? I don't care about getting up on stage with a tee shirt on and stuff because that's, its about the real thing. But that's the thing-- the machine has built up such a shiny... little.... you know, idea.

HOLMES: Yeah, it's got a package, everything's got a neat package, and it's like, there's so many different styles out there that are appealing that aren't packaged-- that it's not delivering beacuse it's not smart enough.

M.I.A.: But they have a lot of, I think hip hop and stuff is going through some of that...

HOLMES: What do you think about hip hop, about main-streem hip hop? Because I love it, in a way, you know, its so amazing, but...and it's so stylized... but it seems like it kind of started this very broad thing and is now this very advanced, narrow thing just about, like, how can you manipulate words around all those different styles to create that effect, you know?

M.I.A.: It's going to get really interesting I think because it's really opening up. Like, I've had so much support from the hip hop community... the past month that I spent in America, I think I've met every single producer and rapper and stuff like that, and every one's... you know Missy Eliot came to my show in New York two days ago, and Kanye West and Nas and Kelis and Timbaland called, and to me that's so bizarre, you know? coming out of your bedroom, never having gigged before, then getting a deal and getting recognition on the internet, and then getting my deal with interscope and (america?) and, you know, its so grass roots and stuff that to have hip hop like, turn up at your shows and be like, oh ok you know I get what she's doing it's kinda weird but its like, its kinda cool, and, they're trying to work with it and stuff so I think things are going to open up a little bit.

HOLMES: What do you talk about with Timbaland?

M.I.A.: He says that he gets it, and Missy gets it...

HOLMES: Would you ever produce a song for some main-streem hip hop act?

M.I.A.: You mean colaborate?

HOLMES: ...or just do the beat?

M.I.A.: I don't know, actually. I mean I think I could...I just have to figure out which kind of dirrection I want to push myself in, you know, my next thing... and I just feel like, usually when I work on beats and stuff I don't think it's for some one else, you know... I find it really personal.

HOLMES: So there's this kind of new stuff happening around music where its a lot more open to participation. Is there any difference between the way its...

M.I.A.: That's what I'm into musically, to keep it really open, I don't want to be localized, and my sounds...I want to be free to do it from wherever I want and where I've got to at this point. I'm totally open to going to work with someone in alternative or hip hop or country and western if I fucking chose, or back in Sri Lanka or back in Brazil or back in China, I feel like I can go anywherew I want. so I really want to have fun with that. I really want to be able to go to like Mongolia and find someone I can colaborate with, you know, the dude milking the cow...

HOLMES: What do you think... and I guess you're approaching this more from the art angle than the political action angle... but if people out there want to do things to take music back from corporations, what do you think they should do?

M.I.A.: ...I think the only way you can do it is to support songs that are not big on the radio, but to still give that artist alternative ways they can exist. Because that's really it, you know, the thing is, you can file share and you can bootleg and you can download, but then you have to make the artist survive, long enough that they can sustain themselves, so how do you make someone susain themselves and...feed them, basically. I mean one of thie things is artists are going to have to kind of be humble in what they want, and not start wearing the million pound fucking diamond necklace around their neck because they don't need it, you know, and the people have to compromise and be like, o.k., you might not buy the album but you go and see a show, so you keep the... ability for the artist to go out.

HOLMES: Do you see a lot of the people who like you doing that?

M.I.A.: Well I see... that's the thing I mean that's how the underground and the alternative scenes exist I guess...artists like...well there's tons of people, tons of musicians that exist probably on doing shows and selling their song to, you know, something... and then sustaining themselves. But I think, you know Peaches, it's one of those sort of things where I don't know how much she gets fileshared, you know what I mean?

HOLMES: Probably a lot. Or proabably like...a moderate amount.

M. Yeah. I think both sides, everybody has to be fair in this you know, and we all know the record companies, well I guess they are like the villains in all this.

HOLMES: (deviously) Should we boycot them?

M.I.A.: Ah, I think that's impossibly really. Not until you've made a better way, until the people have figured out a better way to distribute outside the internet and stuff. To me, that's why it's really important that I start hanging onto the fact that I was coming from a global position and that I don't have a localized area or anything like that, because it is so much about the internet, because of that. I know that kids in Sri Lanka can hear my music through the internet and when I get to Sri Lanka they don't even have anything in the villages and its been war torn for twenty years, but you always find a little internet shack, you know? So I know that there's interest in the third world and places to have that infromation at your finger tips at the same time as everybody else in the west, whereas, they don't have record shops and they have to go buy a cd player for like a month's wages. So in that sense its really important for us to just say, well, it's one big planet, and if a song comes out then its just about spreading it and not really about localized record companies. I mean the reason why right now you're dependant on Sony or Universal or whatever is that right now they've got distribution all over the world that can get your music out. So that artists, to some extent, especially me... I mean I had no musical background, history, or idea about how it worked, and I was always like you know, I'm gonna watch my back because you do hear that they fuck you over. And I'm the most, like, mean, hard, cautious, cynical person you can think of when it comes to the authority figure, you know? but at some point I had to go, yeah-- you know I signed to an indie in London, and then how far can they get it across? And then I signed to interscope and I know they can get more records out to more people, so then they have a choice. They can go buy a Brittney record or they can buy your record. So...the one thing you have to fight with all these corporations... television, radio, even the government... everybody has got people down for the mental age of about twelve, and that's why they feed us shit, because they think that we're really really dumb, and that's why the internet is so refreshing, becuse you can adress people on their level. You can just go, yeah you're smart, this is what's going on, and you can just start the conversation on a certain level. But the rest of the world is just set to a lowest common denominator, and they think that you're really thick. And I was so bored of that, you know? Especially when you live in England, and you stand up and you try to get anything made or do work or aproach any corporations, and they always assume that the people out there are so dumb, therefore you have to water everything down, you have to dilute it, censor it...

HOLMES: So what if, I mean, we've sort of been kicking around this theory, and this is just totally off the cuff but maybe you could tell me what you think of it... that at some point maybe all the stuff that's targeted to the least common demomonator, to people's lowest ability to appreciate things, that people will just stop buying it. That they might download it, but they're not going to buy it anymore. But the stuff that hits them at their level or, above their level, that really inspires, then they'll be into buying that, because its something they feel. And if that happens, then, I mean the reason they target the least common denomonator is that its the best way to make money, you know. Sex and violence is always going to make money.

M.I.A.: You know what? When I made my album everybody was like, what the fuck is this shit? You know in England I had like a handful of people who believed in me, and they were the people that actually signed me without doing gigs and stuff, but... they got it... but apart from that, a lot of poeple were just like, what is it? This is just appealling to people KNOWING they're not stupid, and I like that. I like feeling on a level with people and just thinking, a song for me...I want this this and this for it to do that to me, and I assume that other people want the same thing. That's how I live. You know? Like, I like this, and I want it to give me information, I want it to move me forward, I want it to make me think, you know what I mean?

HOLMES: Yeah it's more full. It's more of what people are...

M.I.A.: Yeah I mean I don't want to hear another song about a car, you know? And there's only so many things you can say about champagne...and that's kind of why I wanted to start writing and be like, I'm going to talk about whatever went on today. It really had to be like that for me, and i know that there's a lot of people that think like me out there. Because I meet them every day. So I don't believe this myth that there's this mass of stupid people that we need to feed marsh-mellows to, you know?

HOLMES: Well the problem is that all the smart people out there still like the stupid stuff because it has that certain something to it, you know?

M.I.A.: That little pop... twinkle thing.

HOLMES: ...and because we all want to dance to music that everybody else knows, because it's more fun that way.

M.I.A.: But then it comes back to (the question of) how you get that stuff out, without selling yourself to a record label. And it's like the internet is the only thing. But then, it means your skin, and you can't get out onto the road, can't do shows, and you're still working at the shop. But you've made a song and it's out and it could be all over the world. So maybe we're just in the early days and there's another way of doing it, and i-tunes kind of makes sense I suppose because it's like 79p a song, but then that still goes through the managers.

HOLMES: Well if you're on a major it still goes through the managers, but if you're not then its a pretty good deal. There's this one system that people have been kicking around where they say o.k. well, there's file sharing software out there, let's legalize it and then track it, so every time someone downloads something it's tracked, and then charge people. You know how they're suing people in America? Well what if you said o.k. you pay five dollars a month and you don't get sued. You get internet at thirty five dollars a month, and pay five dollars a month for music. That five dollars goes into a pool and gets distributed according to how many downloads you get. Would you go for that, if you were a politician?

M.I.A.: Yeah definitely.

HOLMES: It's one of those things that they don't want to do because it means less control. Because anybody can come up and make money, and get popular.

M.I.A.: It would make it so fierce though. It would make the industry so fierce.

HOLMES: Yeah because if you can get it out there then it sells. And the other thing is, if an album gets leaked, say an album gets leaked six weeks before it comes out, then it doesn't matter. People still get paid.

M.I.A.: Yeah I suppose it's kind of like, early days, but I'll vote for it. I mean I've done it in such a higgledy-piggledy sort of way, you know my album was out, and then I did a mix-tape, everybody downloaded the album, everybody downloaded the mix tape, and then "Galang" came out and it was more widespread on the internet, It never got radio play, you know what I mean?

HOLMES: The video is amazing.

M.I.A.: Yeah and I get like two million hits a month on my website or whatever and it's kind of like, you know, I totally believe in the power of the internet. (laughing) I BELIEVE!

HOLMES: this is the last question. Do you bring your stencils with you on tour?

M.I.A.: No, I don't.

HOLMES: Did you do them on the street or mostly in studios?

M.I.A.: I did some on the streets. Then I just did (them on) stuff I found, like planks of wood on building sides and things like that. And that's what I had to put in the show.

HOLMES: Well otherwise I'd say lets go out and do some stenciling right now, but...

M.I.A.: I wish. That would be really cool.